H.A. Just because that information wasnt provided, however, doesnt mean that hes not seeing a licensed professional. I think the way these churches do it IS called accountability groups where people are urged to confess everything to the group and Im not sure what happens next . Theres a show about morbidly obese people on cable TV, and some of them over eat to medicate pain left over from childhood. After he was defrocked he stayed as head pastor of St. Peter Presbyterian Church but changed his and his churchs affiliation to Doug Wilsons CREC. Now that Im grown and look back on that, I realize even more clearly how serious a situation that could have become if he had had a few too many, driving home on twisting mountain roads in the pouring rain. Velour wrote: This isnt NEW behavior, this is the same old thing playing out with slightly different circumstances. So I was only saying what the Bible says. @ refugee: That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. It may be all they can do to get help. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. The county health plan and hospital also has appointments for people who cant afford private care. I doubt I will. Or do you not know? took exception to what I said and said I created a false correlation. If it makes someone uncomfortable, me thinks they may need to do some self examination about their drinking. . One way or another. ridiculous with devastating consequences. Its for good reason that so many have called it a cult.. Usually a Churchill Cocktail about 1/4 inch (or a cm) of whiskey at the bottom of the glass, then fill the rest with water; dilutes the mix down to less than 3% alcohol. That he should get treatment; and Although my situation is different. Yes, you are correct I meant his own as in a new group unaffiliated with his fathers. Maybe, in other words, theyre treating the paid guy in the pulpit exactly the same as theyd treat the least of Jesus siblings. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. I wont go into too much what I was told when I moved back in by my church family, abandoning God, letting the church down, not having the mind of Christ, succumbing to the world, loving my family more than loving God etc. They will not change who the man fundamentally is. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. Sitting in a church, and attending weekly, didnt help heal me of anxiety, depression, or help me deal with grief after a death in the family. I turned 13 about a month after the wreck and felt like a freak! I try, like most of us, not to be easily offended. ), are out of line. honestly, if people front-loaded their development with Christian formation, then I think a lot of that Church discipline stuff wouldnt be needed, Why? He might have even qualified to have his criminal record expunged. @ jeff: Please explain to us how her logic is flawed. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. Hi Daisy, Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. If he was working with a sponsor in a 12-step program he would be required to make a list of the people he had harmed and to make amends to them, except when do so would injure a person. So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? That is an exaggeration and overstatement. I have studied and truly believe and understand the disease/treatment model for addictions. I, too, thought it was very moving. Friend your comment made me weep. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. (We lived out in the country.) He had a disease. I said to her When Abby was diagnosed with her brain tumor, what I wouldnt have given for such a disease. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. This is not all that safe sometimes. Apologies for hitting to soon and posting. She was saying he should be put out. Thank You. wrote: We were basically a para church ministry. Al-Anon equips people who have been harmed by problem drinkers to learn how to take care of themselves, and thats different for every person. I suppose those who loved his late father, R.C. I dont know whether theres a formal definition, or even consensus, on what makes an alcoholic. Purge the evil person from among you.. Well,this is one way. I have no doubt that I have a guardian angel (maybe more than one!). Or would you see the situation differently? or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] Two very separate issues here. Christiane, you ask whether there is authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian Church. To me, the bottom line is Does RSJ want help? This is so dangerous. His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. He is going to end up dead or lifelong in prison if he does not get serious help, and the fact that his family and colleagues contribute to his continued drinking behavior implicates them as well. Velour wrote: Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. Im asking, since you advocate for alcoholics to get non-church treatment AND to be allowed to sit in a pew every week. Sproul Sr. will experience, Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to. Thanks ever so much. Im going to look at this again, with your comments in mind. When you brought up 1 Cor. ), Thank you so much for this balanced and compassionate post, George. The domination by one person makes it difficult to have a healthy conversation. But he stopped going to AA and we realized he was drinking again. I dont recall anyone saying addictions alone warranted anyone being kicked out. (LogOut/ Unfortunately, in spite of yearsof problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake,it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. Awful. He has to be protected from injuring himself or others-regardless of the fact that it is a sickness and not a crime. I dont think barbara was making a medical argument, though. R.C. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Some of us have been on the receiving end of RCs lies and manipulations, so its not just speculation. The fact is RC Jr has been abusing booze since he was a teenager. I disagree, however, with the policy that people struggling with alcoholism and drug addiction should be kicked out of their churches. I agree with this. Whatever that hurt is, it must be addressed. Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. It would be unethical for me to do so. And yes, I read the story above about the alcoholic lady who died, and her church paid for her funeral. which guy of those 3 would you choose to be stuck with? Hopefully one day our judicial system will get that. Barbara wont even permit the word codependency to be used on her blog. Sorry. She can run her blog how she likes. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp. Because DUIs are manly I had surgery Monday. Whether your last name is Sproul or not I hope youll still feel welcome, although Im sure this is all hard to read. for sharing your further insights about R.C. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. Open Discussion Page, I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. Picking up the bottle is a CHOICE, and thus a moral failure and sometimes a crime (when they get behind the wheel drunk). I very concerned that in this day and age with all of the resources available to help guide the church with handling serious problems including substance abuse that the only response that Barbara had was to kick Sproul out of the church. I had to be treated for major clinical depression and be put on anti-depressants. One theme Im getting from your numerous replies, and in spite of your protests to the contrary, is that a persons alcoholism should out-weight all else, and excuse that person. I remember a friend teaching me to ask for sparkling water or ginger ale with a wedge of lime at a cocktail parties because it looked like something alcoholic Gave me something to hold in my hand, and kept the guys from trying to buy me a drink. -Which will bum Velour out for me to say, because she thinks Im not chipper and positive enough about things, but I am stating my reality. Has that been reported on or discussed? If we ban someone from our blog, we put their email address on the blacklist which means that WordPress will then automatically send any comment submitted from that email address to our Spam folder. Our sin is as sinful as is his. Many times when people get clean and sober, and start assessing the wreckage of their past with a sober sponsor in a recovery program, the recovering alcoholic matures and grows out of old habits and ideas. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his fathers recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. so I think that the front-loaded moral and ethical formation of a young person in the Church is a kind of preventative and strengthening function, far more positive than punishment. Someone who lurks here and has a family history of alcoholism, and struggles with the issue as a Christian, found Barbaras response to H.U.G. In most cases those sins were nothing more than they wanted to leave his church for another church. If RC Sproul 2 eventually gets clean and sober and makes amends, with the help of a recovery sponsor who mentors him, I am sure that he will have a lot of wreckage to clean up at his former churches. Methinks you proclaimed the gospel. The hotter it is, the faster those icy cold spirits will flow. This story cuts too close to home. I appreciate H.A.s appropriate anger toward R.C. 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