But I think about this conversation because this is a conversation that I think people are beginning to have. I also think this conversation isnt just about who were seeing onscreen or larger cultural narratives changing. Honestly, I feel like I dont have an answer for that, because I dont think theres anything that I would throw under the bus. Theyre little, theyre super cute and their storyline is basically about how one helps the other feel better but in the process sort of confesses their love for the other one. Dillon is also the founder and the producing director of MIRROR/FIRE Productions. There are things that overlap. So in that sense, theres a really, really big opportunity in animation to go beyond what we understand about gender, and I think animation has actually been at the forefront of this. There is a whole storyline about two aliens; theyre non-binary aliens. But I watched SNL religiously. Asia Kate Dillon: I agree. When its used well, when its telling a story well, or creating representation or visibility for something thats really lacking it can really save lives. So I do feel left out of conversations that continue to align femininity and womanhood with uteruses and vaginas. And the problem up until now has been that there has been the majority of one kind of representation. And if we are trying to award art that is representational of everyone, then we need to be representing everyone, and abolishing gendered awards is one part of the change that needs to happen. So theres also a famous Star Trek episode that deals with race, where theres a whole race of people and half of them have white on one side of the face and black on the other. Why are men not allowed to access this characteristic just because its coded as feminine? And Im certainly happy as a light-skinned white person to play an antihero onscreen, because we have so many examples of white people as heroes. I was fine with it and excited for it. Abbey, thank you so much for joining us on this podcast today. But the whole show is kind of morally gray, which is what I like about it. Im definitely still learning. And it really feels synchronistic to me that Taylor came into my life at a time when I was really ready to say, I have to be brave. Sun: How intentional I mean, its probably safe to assume that Looney Tunes, Chuck Jones and those creators werent necessarily conscious or fully cognizant of that but these latter-day animators, this current generation you mentioned Adventure Time. It needs to happen because there is a non-binary writer whos been brought in, a consultant, a producer. And obviously this is not an intentional non-binary representation, but . So Ill give them both to you at the same time. In terms of the ongoing conversation around Taylors gender identity over the past four seasons, I would say there has been very little, because that is just one part of what makes up who Taylor is. Im remembering one of the earliest interviews you gave, I think it was on the Ellen show where you delineated the difference between the physiology of our bodies and I think what you called gender identity being what is between the ears. Something that is more about I dont want to put words in your mouth but I think more about a consciousness, it seems, rather than a biological expression? And I think our media is really representative of how that conversation has changed. It's a basic human right.". Again, given the context of the things that weve seen all of the characters do and what we know that theyre capable of, I think those moments certainly hit me more when you see something like that, and that was a beautiful scene, and I really loved that arc. LGBTQ activists and allies have advocated for gender-neutral acting categories at major awards ceremonies like the Oscars and the Golden Globes. And I would say, youve encountered them in your real life, you just dont know it. I mean, I spent so many years not understanding my own gender identity, not having the language to talk about it, and not feeling safe in many environments to talk about it. We also need to see more roles for women, especially and particularly women of color, trans, non-binary and gender nonconforming and intersex people. It was just not a thing. I think were at a place in the general understanding in Hollywood where your actors should come from a background that matches the character, especially when youre talking about portraying a character that comes from a marginalized background, but what is the line of appropriateness when it comes to gender nonconforming performers? So thank you. Its about making space for everyone. Thank you again. That can be very powerful and helpful in the de-stigmatization of trans bodies. Im very curious to see what, for example, Joey Solloway, who I think is probably the most prominent non-binary creator in Hollywood they made Transparent and were a very respected indie film director prior what they will do now that they have come out specifically as non-binary and how to advocate for more voices in that space. Its so fun to play a character that doesnt use any machismo or bravado. Theres another genre in which this sort of gender play is more frequently seen than other genres, and thats science fiction/fantasy. But these two characters are just adorable aliens. And so you have these sort of transgressive representations that come out of bigotry or thoughtlessness or a place of humor. But theres also something freeing about seeing a character who walks around and is comfortable with who they are. That is certainly a change in the last couple of years and the more of that the better. As soon as they enter the narrative, they are not binary. Whereas for people who fall into that gender binary neatly, they dont have to. But someone where you never see their body or the body is not representative in the story of a binary necessarily, and/or someones gender identity is just man or woman or male or female, again, it really is going to be specific to the story and the character, but if its right for me, then itll be right. The whole idea behind Steven Universe is an upending of gender expectation. Asia Kate Dillon - IMDb So I read that when you read the original character breakdown for Taylor Mason, specifically the description that the character was female non-binary, that helped you to put together some pieces for yourself. Dillon: Frankly, if Im allowed to promote myself and the show, I would say, if you havent watched Billions, watch Billions. But when someone is misgendering me repeatedly, even after Ive reminded them of my pronouns, then it becomes something else, and its pretty clear when that happens. I dont want to give an excuse and say trial and error, but you do see a lot of errors on the interminable road of progress. I think about Malcolm in the Middle, the baby on Malcolm in the Middle just did not have a name or a gender for multiple episodes. Your characters get to do different things and they get to be different people, and thats because theyre not conforming to that binary. When did you start to get recognized as an actor?I started to get recognized when my season of Orange came out. This is reality for us, and all we ask for is acceptance and validation for what we say that we are. But what the 33-year-old gets asked about perhaps most frequently is gender identity: Dillons is nonbinary, with the preferred pronoun of they.. Asia Kate Dillon Talks Discovering The Word Non-Binary: 'I Cried' But the very first person that Taylor had an impact on was actually yourself, which I think is kind of beautiful. I have always experienced myself that way. And I feel like Hollywood treats babies like props anyway. I really like a structure. My relationship as a non-binary person to my gender which I dont even have a very specific label for, I dont consider myself gender fluid. Im curious, though, whether or not we will see a trickle-down effect to non-binary performers getting to play non-binary characters or whether their roles will be along binary lines. I wasnt watching TV at that time, but when I got the audition I was like oh, I have to binge watch the whole thing. And I was like, Oh, this wild, funny, sturdy, pink character is sort of embodying the ways that I think my gender presents, which is not a binary, its not clearly defined. Is Asia Kate Dillon Related To Matt Dillon. 13 celebrities who don't identify as either male or female - Insider But its through the media. Not everyone identifies within the binary, they say. And I feel really grateful that its always felt like a very safe space to do that. Cardigan by Maison Kitsun / Shirt by Agns B / Beanie by American Apparel / Necklaces, Dillon's own. And so now, having the opportunity to talk about it and have it printed is extraordinary for me, and it doesnt get tiring., One particularly notable moment of explanation was when Dillon was a guest on The Ellen DeGeneres Show. He is a gay man of color, and one of the things that he said really stuck out to me, and that was that queer white people get to be queer, and queer people of color are people of color first, which means that society looks at our race before it looks at our sexuality. Asias other credits include John Wick 3: Parabellum, Orange Is the New Black and the animated series gen:LOCK. Its a big part of what Dillon brought to the second season of Billionsthe rare show that actually got better in the second installment, thanks in large part to Dillons expectation-shattering turn as Taylor, the hotshot hedge fund star who bears little surface resemblance to any hedge fund hotshot whos come before. Dillon: Yeah, I think its essential. Sun: I cribbed that from ah, which scholar coined the invisibility of whiteness? Instagram is a weird space. If it takes 20 years, I have personally failed. What does it mean for you to fall in love with someone, and they fall in love with you, under the assumption that you are one thing and youre actually the other? Thats a message of self-care, is what youre saying: Dont expose yourself to problematic portrayals. I think Pat was a joke. Asia Kate Dillon & Dan Soder Immediately Hit it Off on 'Billions' The actor has an estimated net worth of $1,276,947. How 'Billions' actor Asia Kate Dillon uses their platform as 1st non So thanks for letting me (Laughs.). Having a deep voice but also being pink, being feminine and masculine at the same time, having a body shape that sort of defies what women or men are supposed to look like was really, really appealing to me. Will breakdowns look less binary? Taylors notI mean, I dont want to generalize about people who drink Red Bull. When my contract was negotiated, I knew that there was a possibility for nudity. How did you find your way to The Adjudicator? Nonbinary, gender-nonconforming, and trans people have always been around, just as long as any other type of person. With warmth and openness and far more hand gestures than youll see from the actors taciturn characters, Dillon discussed soft power, killer costumes and how to show skin and emotion on camera. Non-binary people arent androgynous, and also androgyny has historically been aligned with masculinity. I feel like a lot of art these days is just entertainment for entertainments sake. I didnt want to take hormones, thats not my journey. Were all babies and then someone looks at whats between our legs and assigns us a sex, then a gender identity is placed on top. So I dont have to change my body, I can release she/her pronouns, I can use they/them. But I think about Bugs Bunny. Sign up for THR news straight to your inbox every day. Sun: Im glad you mentioned Rutherford Falls, because that brings in something you talked about earlier about genre. Of course, sometimes theres fried chicken, but both always tend to have quinoa salad, orzo salad, etc.. Orange tends to have more sweets, theres a little bit more sugar on the Orange set. Here's what to know, Adults with autism say they always felt 'different' growing up. Gender nonconformity has traditionally been a means of exploring horror narratives, they explain. It mostly feels like a conversation, a dialogue about what pronouns are, what gender identity is, the fact that were all assigned a sex, but that everyone actually has the autonomy to decide how they identify. And they came back and said, Theres never been any rule. No. (Laughs.). And it makes a lot of sense that Star Trek, based off of its founding principles that it has carried through its entire franchise over decades, would be progressive in conversations about gender. I feel lucky to be writing this. Stars Open Up About Their Trans Experiences [PHOTOS] - People Asia Kate Dillon: 'Life can be so diverse, mysterious and beautiful Its very difficult for me to dismantle it, Ill be honest. I carry that with me when Im out in the world and Im misgendered. And that seems really radical, tucked within that very problematic representation. This applies also to disability representation and also religious representation. And I think just knowing that, understanding that, allows a possible road towards a way in which to approach conversation with a person who is coming from a totally different perspective, but who is holding it in the same place within themselves that you hold your beliefs. And Ive said this before there, there were a handful of times, particularly season two, season three, and there will occasionally still happen where theres some phraseology that comes out in a script or a certain word. has quite a lot of. It feels sensational. Sun: Pat even got their own movie, didnt they? Read on for our chat about everything from whether Alec Baldwin does a good Trump impression to what kind of person even drinks Red Bull to the backstory on that game-changing role as Taylor. Sun: Asia Kate Dillon plays the genius hedge fund executive Taylor Mason on Billions, whose fifth season returned on Showtime Sept. 5. (Laughs.) Its this adventurey place. Giving other people time is important. And Ive learned that sometimes you think theres going to be food when you get to set, and there isnt. I would like to be, though. Taylors everything is very well manicured and particular. Dillon: Thank you for asking about that. I always have a power ranking after every episode, and Taylor has pretty consistently been my number one character basically since Connerty went to jail and Wendy became incredibly morally ambiguous. Particularly as someone who might not necessarily align with who their child is. Why actor Asia Kate Dillon is neither woman nor man - Yahoo (Laughs.) Its worthwhile practice though. In my real life, Im a Black Lives Matter social justice activist, and so it was incredibly interesting to me to play somebody coming from the totally opposite side, whose beliefs are as deeply entrenched as deeply felt, and given as much gravity, as I give my beliefs. Someone can have a beard and be trans. Lets keep going. Like, what if I had to be in a place where my gender didnt align with something that somebody could immediately clock? Dillon: I encounter this and it doesnt matter what room I was in specifically but where were going around and saying our names, and I am the only person that will offer my pronouns. I understand because so much of our world is basically coded through this very firm gender binary. Dillon: Thank you again for asking about it and letting me talk about it. To all trans people who deal with harassment, self-loathing, abuse and the threat of violence every day: I see you, I love you and I will do everything I can to change this world for the better. They have a mild social media following with more than 150k followers on Instagram and more than 50k followers on Twitter. But one of the reasons the show is resonating with people right now is because the show examines why we find the characteristics of charm, and flawed people, appealing. Thats really all that they have. Dillon: I have to be honest about the fact that Im not a casting director and Im not an agent and Im not a manager, so Im not seeing scripts come across my desk, quote-unquote, every day. But Taylor is not drinking Red Bull. 454 1. Meanwhile, Steven and Rebecca has talked about this, theyve talked about this rather extensively Steven is a gender nonconforming boy whos a little softer around the edges. Baby representation on TV has been a really interesting space in animation and live action. Asia has mentioned that they are attracted to both males and females. An example of that is when I am misgendered. Its Pat. To your knowledge, have people told you whether or not thats actually true to life of the real-life hedge fund world? No, I just had a lot of demons back then. And frankly, that is one of the reasons that I really wanted to play the part, not only as an actor getting to play a character who is integral to the storyline, but a non-binary character who is integral to the storyline is extraordinarily important because then that characters story isnt just maybe a one- or two-episode arc. And if Taylor, if this fictional character can exist in this fictional world and has been brave enough to get up and get dressed and go out there into the world and be who they really are, then I can too. Watching a lot of kids cartoons, where theres increasing conversation about the impact of gender stereotypes and what that reinforces in cisgender and non-binary and trans kids and maybe how damaging that can be when you watch some of these cartoons, its not even just blue is for boy and pink is for girl. Its like, a car has to have eyelashes, which is a weird thing because its assuming, one, that men and boys dont have eyelashes. Thats a really powerful part of non-binary representation in media. In the 1950s, Christine Jorgensen was the first known person to undergo sex reassignment surgery, identifying as a woman some years after her service in World War II. Their role on Billions is the first gender non-binary character shown on American television. The Ellen DeGeneres Show (2003-2023) Jane Fonda ( Grace and Frankie (2015)); Asia Kate Dillon ( Billions (2016)); guest DJ Stephen Boss. I combed through this in the first half of this podcast with one of my colleagues who is non-binary, and theres not a long history. Its also been really incredible to see trans and non-binary people, particularly people of color, Black and indigenous people, having control of their own stories and being the ones who are writing them, directing them, producing them. I like schedules so that I can just figure out how Im going to bob and weave through it all. Dillon: Totally. There were versions of the script that had pronouns for the Adjudicator that were he/him, there were versions that had she/her. Ceed_Lab. And I think these are rooms with people who are somewhat familiar with gender identity or the concept of pronouns, or certainly when I use mine could be like, What did that mean? So yes, Im just relating to the fact that, as you said, the burden is always on or predominantly on non-binary or trans people, gender nonconforming people, to say, like, Heres how Im different instead of the burden or the joy actually on all of us getting to self-determine, be autonomous and have that respected. Sun: No, I appreciate that. Representation has always had this weight of the first. Billions and Orange Is The New Black actor Asia Kate Dillon has a neck tattoo that reads, in twirly script, einfhlung. Einfhlung, the German word for empathy, is something Dillon (surprise!) Everyone Is Just Scrambling: Hollywood on Edge as Writers Guild Talks Go Down to the Wire, Beef Creators Break Silence on David Choe Controversy, W. Kamau Bell Interviews Multiracial Kids in HBOs 1000% Me: Growing Up Mixed Trailer (Exclusive), Warner Bros. Studios Celebrates 100th Anniversary With Diverse Shorts Re-Creating Warner Bros. The Adjudicator allows themselves to have a little more fun. What is that line? Search instead in Creative? Its imperfect, but I think some of those flaws are intentional because its not just about the non-binary character. And that is a character of color in a show featuring indigenous people in a way that indigenous people havent really been represented before. The gender binary does not exist. Lets talk a little bit about definitions so that all of us can understand the parameters of what well be talking about today. Im so grateful that neither Brandy nor Taylor wear any makeup although they do cover my neck tattoo for Taylor but its a real easy time in the [hair and makeup] chair for me. What we need are visions of trans, non-binary, gender nonconforming people not only surviving but thriving and being loved and having loved and being fully formed characters and human beings, so that when viewers are watching, they can relate to us as full human beings and hopefully learn to love and care about those characters, which I know translates to love and care for trans, non-binary, gender nonconforming, intersex people in real life. Sun: Precisely. I would still argue that most non-binary representation is white, but theres progress. Prior to encountering the character breakdown for Taylor, I had been experimenting with removing she/her pronouns from online bio materials and just using my name, but frankly, the only trans people that I had been aware of prior to encountering Taylor had undergone some sort of either medical or physical change, whether it was taking hormones or some kind of surgery so that they could live fully as themselves in their identity. It sounds so parochial, the Masons.. Are you zero waste?Asia Kate Dillon: No! Asia Kate Dillon appeared on the silver screen alongside Keanu Reeves in "John Wick: Chapter 3 Parabellum." In an interview with Insider, the actor revealed how they advocated to bring a bit of their own identity to their role as the Adjudicator in "John Wick." They use multiple pronouns, they are referred to as boy and girl and all kinds of things. Demi Lovato I think was the most recent really big announcement. And the teaching moment didnt hit anyone over the head with this is the righteous way to be because it rang true to the characters, and I think that is a credit to the extraordinary writing we have on the show. But there are shows now that I think are really stepping up and a lot of creators who are really careful and mindful, and its really meaningful for them because these were things they didnt have when they were kids. Keanu Reeves had the idea for a character who wasnt going to take up physical arms in this movie, who had a different kind of power, a quiet power. Steven Universe gets talked about a lot, and I think thats one of the reasons why. Thank you again. And I was able to step into an identity, my non-binary identity, fully. I am a transgender female. This was such a pleasure. I will offer whatever support I can and continue to strive for a more loving and equal society. I can't say I haven't looked in the mirror and said, ''Work, bitch.'. I dont know if that answers your question. Actor Asia Kate Dillon predicts that widespread scrapping of gendered entertainment categories is just a matter of time. White: In animation, because it is such a fluid medium, because it doesnt have to ascribe to the physical realism that exists in live-action film and TV, you can be super expressive, and I think theres a long history of people exploring gender intentionally and unintentionally through animation. Sun: And that really does emerge in so many different topics when weve been talking about inclusion is that these are sandboxes that are in some ways to use this overworn phrase in a genuine way a safe space to be able to explore some of these stories or identities that mainstream culture wasnt ready for yet. Im a marginalized person because Im nonbinary, but I carry white body privilege. They had more lines. They've spent time in prison on Netflix's Orange Is the New Black and. I would say that elements of Bugs Bunnys representation have gender nonconformity, and that can apply to anybody, not just non-binary people. The first Black person to do anything is both going to be celebrated and also scorned, because they didnt do it the right way and it wasnt enough for everybody. And, as a semi-religious person who went to Catholic school, I have come to believe that God made me transgender. Weve always been having conversations about gender.
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